Far from engaging in dialogue and discussion, the Spanish State has decided to aggravate the situation by imprisoning (not after any sort of trial, but by arresting them on suspicion of sedition and then denying them bail) Jordi Cuixart and Jordi Sànchez, leaders of the main civic movements behind the mass demonstations in support of independence over the past five years, Òmnium and the ANC.
Òmnium have produced this video in English, which I think needs to be shared as widely as possible.
People can also sign the Help Catalonia Save Europe manifesto here.
Despite the picture painted by most media outlets, things are far from hopeless. At present I think the main priority is to show the rest of the world that Spain has absolutely no intention of resolving the matter by dialogue. It clearly thinks that increasingly draconian measures like these imprisonments will force Catalans back into the box in which Spain would like to keep them.
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Another thing we can do is show support for Catalunya at this rally in Cardiff on Saturday 28 October, organized by Yes Cymru.
15 comments:
The information in the video is partial and manipulated.
The images in the video are carefully selected to show police violence and pacifism from the people. With a proper selection of the images, you could see the opposite. People attacking police and police retracting to avoid violence with the people.
I agree that this (spanish) government does not represent us (very corrupt to represent anyone other than themselves), but the Catalonia government only represents to about 30% of catalanians. Catalan independentists were now for 30 years frightening non-independant people. Look for the images of October-12. Many (most) of the Catalanian feel spanish, but they are silenced by fear.
If you think there's anything "manipulated" about the video, please feel free to provide links to the videos showing voters attacking the police, 14:41.
You don't say who you mean by "us", but the Catalan government was elected in 2015 with 39.6% of the vote and 71 seats out of 135. On matters relating to independence they are backed by CUP with 8.2% of the vote and 10 seats. So where do you get the idea that they only represent 30% of Catalans? Out of the total electorate, 37.8% voted for independence on 1 October.
I'm sure that lots of people in Catalunya feel Spanish, perhaps even a majority. But feeling Spanish and Catalan aren't mutually exclusive, so it's quite possible for most people in Catalunya to feel Spanish, and for most people in Catalunya to feel Catalan, because of the overlap. However these identities do not define how people want Catalunya to be governed.
The only way to determine how many want Catalunya to be independent and how many want to remain part of Spain is for them to vote, which is exactly what happened on 1 October, despite the Spanish state doing all it could to prevent the referendum from taking place.
Only some examples ... you can find examples of anything (good or bad for the ones or the others) in the videos of 1-0. I don't want to say that the independants were violent (a little part of them was, the same as a little part of the police, but it's obvious that the more of them are normal and peaceful people).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSlwrSpWkMY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHgXPsdx7Yo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJCk5EQK5ik
Anyone here (in Spain) knows that the Spanish police is not the best. Some of them use too much violence. Our government wrote laws ("ley mordaza") to keep the people silenced. I know it and I vote against it, so I don't want to defend any posture here, but the content of the video is very far from the reality.
Independentist are not only catalanian. One of the "premises" of the independentists are the "Països Catalans" (catalanian countries). I lived for 25 years (from born to 25 y/o) in other of those "catalanian countries", the region around Valencia ("comunidad valenciana" in spanish).
From 1986 (+-) the independentists (a minory) were gaining weight in the institutions (they supported the central government, getting new competences with each trade), so they begun the indoctrination process at schools (and high schools). I was obliged to learn a language that I was not learned ever (their language). Than language, spoken only by a little part of the population, was mandatory to work in the administration (and in University access tests), so the people from that zone (that speaks that language from born) was privileged in those processes.
My experience with those independentists was very bad, BUT I don't hate them. I don't think they should be aniquilated. Many people should think in many different forms. This needs to be accepted.
Should the Catalanians vote? YES YES YES. It's a very big error to keep united the people by force. I'm confident that, if in a peacefull environment, if ALL the catalanian vote, the result should be 10% independence, 90% keep with Spain. We (all) are very confortable people. We don't like the big changes resulting in big problems. Bigger "countries", well managed, are more competitive (some countries merged in USA, some countries merged in Europe Union, the same in Africa, south America and Asia ... XX and XXI centuries are the globalization centuries) so the natural result of the human evolution is to do the things together. No one wants to "split" unless there's a really big problem in be together. And, believe me, they (catalanians) don't have more problems that the rest of the spanish people.
Regarding 30% or 37% or whatever ...
Official number: 90% vote YES to independence.
Calculated from official numbers: Only 2.2 million votes, so only 37% voted YES to independence.
But ... you can see, in other videos (sorry, I don't have them located right now) how the polling was. Ballot boxes in the floor, in the street. People throwing votes with full hands inside. There's no estimation on how many REAL votes were inside the ballot boxes.
Who is guilty from this chaotic situation? Spanish government, of course, but the redits were to the independentists.
I thin that 30% (my estimation) is very benevolent with independentists, so it could be 20% or 15%. But it doesn't matter ... taking the official numbers ... 37% wants to be independant ... what about the other 63%?
There are many independant movements around the world. Some of them, motivated by historical reasons. Other, by economic resons. Other by cultural reasons ... but this is not the case. The people you see in TV leading an independant aventure are only opportunistic people.
Some real independist people has their own reasons (I agree, or I disagree, that's my problem and I MUST respect them) but Carles Puigdemont (and all the party around him) are been opportunistic independants for the last 30 years.
anon 16:25,
It's much the same here in Wales. The independents want an election for independence, but only when they think they will win. Once they do win they won't ever want to hold another (unless they are sure they can win again).
To secure an independence victory they fight for the Welsh language to be taught in schools and they try to teach an imaginary history about Wales once having been a lawful, law abiding and united country, successful and proud.
All complete nonsense, of course. But I do agree that we should let those that want to be independent go off and be independent and those that don't want to be independent should be allowed to remain just as they are.
14:41 = 16:25 = me
It seems the same story, anon 17:40.
I don't know about Wales history, so I can't judge them neither saing "imaginary history". And with Catalans happens the same ... I don't know enought about Spanish history (I'm only a computer engineer) to say that they teach "imaginary history" sistematically (but a number of ilustrated people says it). I should respect them all because I don't know if they are playing dirty or not, but ... what about if you hear "Shakespeare was not English, he was French"? You should think I'm stupid (or inventing the history) ... I have heard the same with Miguel de Cervantes (he was from Catalonia, of course!! And Cristobal Colón too!! And "Teresa de Jesús" (from Avila, in the west of Madrid) was from Barcelona!!) ...
Video from Asamblea Nacional Catalana (ANC):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2l9rGO7eu4
(Text in Spanish, voice in Catalan. The text coincides with the voice, I'm sorry, not english subtitles).
But, in the other hand, the current spanish government manipulated the history many times too.
This is a dirty war from two dirty political parties. Real independants and real non-independants (all the good people) we are only victims of the manipulation on both sides.
And, it's sad to say, but many of the spanish population (and I think it happens in every country) are very "manipulable" (stupids in other words). I have a friend. We both grow together for some years. We both hate that "impossed" language ... I go to other city to work for 20 years and, now, I can't recognise him. He has been (from my point of view) indoctrinated.
As I said, I'm not here to give lessons to anybody, or to defend one or the other posture ... I only saw a very imprecisse (or false, or manipulating ...) video that is converting in viral. And I think that video does not represent my country (or any part of it). This is a very improvable country, with many things that I don't like, so I vote (with hope) to other parties that try to unite us and change the things, not to separare us.
And only a remark ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvds2AIiWLA
The just published video is a copy of the viral Ukranian video, just before (I think) the Ukranian civil war.
I return now to my English lessons (I really need them!!).
Thanks for reading me (and all my heavy text) and have a good day ... the independants, and the not-independants ... I respect you the same :)
See you!
Thanks for the links, 16:25. Anybody who looks at them will see for themselves that they do not show the Guardia Civil being "attacked". What they show is them making an orderly retreat in the face of crowds of completely non-violent (but vocal) citizens. It isn't clear who fired the shots in the second video, but the GC were armed, and I would guess they fired the shots. If the GC had been fired at, I'm sure they would have gone into the crowd to get those responsible rather than back away.
You claim that the Òmnium video is "very far from the reality", but how can it be? The video evidence of the GC using physical violence against people and stealing ballot boxes is incontrovertible.
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I don't know why you are so upset about language. Anyone who goes to school in one of the Països Catalans should expect to be able to speak both Catalan and Castilian. It isn't "indoctrination", it's bilingualism ... which is an entirely good thing. Everybody should be free to use whatever language they prefer, but in order to have that choice, they must know how to speak both languages. School is the appropriate lace to learn. The same is true here in Wales. Every child who grows up in Wales should be able to speak both English and Welsh. (17:40 alludes to this. But what he says about "imaginary history" seems to me to be a figment of his own imagination.)
But yes, it is "the same story". There are at least another dozen stateless nations that want independence, and many of their the reasons for wanting it are more or less the same. For what it's worth, the way the Spanish State has been trying get the Balearics to move away from Catalan-medium education is one of the reasons why I fully expect them to become independent very soon after Catalunya (the principality). I think the Basques will become independent too, largely because they too are a nation, and the language situation is similar.
This is why the Spanish state is so concerned to prevent Catalan independence. Spain stands to lose not only Catalunya, but other presently autonomous communities too.
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I'm pleased to hear that you think that voting is the answer. I don't think you're right about only 10% voting for independence if there were to be another referendum, but neither your opinion nor mine would matter. The result would speak for itself. The Catalan government repeatedly said that it would not hold the 1 October referendum if Spain would agree to one.
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You say that 37% voted for independence, but then ask about the other 63%. In any referendum or election in a Western democracy (apart from places where voting is compulsory, like Belgium and Australia) there will be people who choose not to vote. You cannot assume that if 37% of the electorate vote Yes, it means that the other 63% would have voted No. Let's say 30% wouldn't vote anyway (a turnout of 70%). That means only 33% would have voted No on 1 October ... so 37% would be a comfortable victory for Yes. But I think a 70% turnout is much too optimistic. The best comparison would be the Catalan referendum in 2006, where the turnout was only 49%.
As I said in this post, the percentage of the total electorate who voted Yes on 1 October was greater than the percentage of the UK electorate that voted to leave the EU.
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Finally, you claim that Puigdemont's party have been "opportunistic" independistas for 30 years. Puigdemont himself has been pro-independence, but his party certainly hasn't been. The CiU only adopted independence as a policy a few years ago, after the mass demonstration organized by Òmnium and the ANC. That decision caused a split between the CDC and the UDC, and the CDC has now become PDeCAT.
As a supporter of self government for wales please let me assure anon 16.25 that those of us in the welsh indy movement are not in any way reluctant to see a referendum on self government for wales - indeed we'd gladly have a referendum on welsh independence tomorrow! I think you'll find its the british state that is afraid to allow a referendum on welsh independence, just as they are continuing to refuse scotland another indy referendum (despite the snp being given a mandate to do so by the people of scotland in the 2016 elections to the scottish parliament).
Furthermore i think you'll also find that every political party in wales supports welsh being taught in schools - yes even ukip. In fact outside the ranks of the most extreme british fascists i cant think of anyone who is opposed to the teaching of welsh. Funnily enough those same british fascists share anons abject knowledge of welsh history.....nuff said.
Regarding anon 14.41 the 'fear' we've seen in catalonia has been on the faces of catalonians of all ages facing brutal assaults from spanish national guardsmen sent in by Rajoy's right wing government in madrid. And while its true that there are people in catalonia who dont support independence i noticed a disturbing number of fascist salutes among those protesting against catalonian independence.
Hello all!
The same anonymous of extend comments is back ...
First of all, a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kZgvtHn4Ls
I guess that it should have some matizable things ... but, in essence, I think it's enought correct. Someone had the patience in searching for the needed videos and attached them to this "critic" of the viral one.
In second place ... I told that I was obliged to study Catalan. All my (student) life It was called "Valenciano" (from Valencia) and I searched for differences between Valenciano and Catalan. When I found them, I discovered that the language I studied was Catalan.
A search in google: "Why Catalan is taught in Valencian schools" ("porqué en las escuelas valencianas se enseña catalán") gave me a first result for a website (http://www.idiomavalencia.com/ -> "valencia_language_dot_com"). Ancient or only ugly site?
In that site I discovered "other point of view" about the independentists dirty war. It's about the defence of the Valencian rural language (distinct from the Catalan rural language), but it exposes the reasons this language was (and currently IS) supplanted by Catalan in MY schools.
Bery interesting reading!!
And, just like anecdote ...
http://www.bcnisnotcat.es/
Tabarnian independentants ... they want the independence (Tarragona and Barcelona) from Catalonia to be free to stay with Spain, as a new administrative region :P
Best regards ...
Thanks for the video. People can judge it for themselves, but I laughed at the idea that independistas were trying to "lynch" the police, and that the only people injured by the police were those trying to attack the police.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about the differences between Catalan and Valencian. Most philologists regard them as the same language, but all languages have regional variations. It's the same sort of difference as exists between American English and Canadian English. And, as everywhere, people in rural areas tend to express themselves differently from those in the cities. I regard these variations as healthy, and something that adds richness to any language.
The language website makes some very strange assumptions about Catalan "imperialism". I'd simply say that people in Valencia (and the Balearics) have the same right to self-determination as those in the Catalunya, and should be free to make their own decisions about whether they want to be independent ... and indeed whether they would like to join some sort of Catalan Confederation. I fully expect that the Balearics will choose to break away from Spain within a few years, I'm not so sure about Valencia.
As for parts of Catalunya wanting to stay within Spain, if majorities there want it, I have no problem with it. However I suspect the the only place where there the idea is likely to have any substantial degree of support is the Val d'Aran. If they do want it, the Catalans specifically passed a law in 2015 confirming their right to self-determination ... so we won't see the Catalan Government making the same sort of threats and using violence, as the Spanish government did in their vain attempt to prevent the Catalans from voting.
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