While I find Rod Liddle's explanation [comment at 12:37am, here] for his hatred of the Welsh to be much more laughable than he thought his original article was, I do want to sound a note of caution against those who are calling it racism.
Being Welsh is not a matter of race, and never has been. Nor is being English. The people of each of our countries are of many different races, with new ingredients constantly being added to the mixture ... whether over a thousand years, a hundred years or just the last decade.
Wales is a nation, and being Welsh is a matter of nationality, not race.
58 comments:
I accused him of racism under the legal definition. In terms of race, I believe that it is a little odd as I see ourselves very much as the same race as the English.
I don't know if that helps!
If Rod, or anyone else of a similar ilk wants to right a satirical piece about S4C or the Welsh language then they are well within their rights to do so. We're going to need thicker skin because I imagine a lot of that is going to be coming our way and not just from the usual Cymru Cringe vultures.
However, it isn't obvious that this was a satirical or tongue in cheek piece. It's very hard to do that in print at the best of times. We can laugh off sheep jokes as it's been done about a trillion times before and it's boring now. The tone Rod took seemed to be outright spiteful though, I mean "pinch-faced hill tribes"?
Bit harsh.
Yes, Ian. I do accept that, and it is a pity that the legislation is framed in the way it is.
My main concern—a result of standing up against racism as much as I know you do—is that if we don't make it clear what the difference between race and nationality is, we give others an opening to call us racists when we stand up for our nation.
Who cares about Rod Liddle? (I quite like his articles actually)
I do with Welsh nats would stop this running to daddy business every time someone is nasty towards us. The Irish rebels didn't go complaining to the police or the crown everytime someone said something nasty about them. They took it on the chin and in fact laughed because they knew it strengthened the cohesion of the national community.
Rod Liddle, Ann Robinson etc do more for Welsh nationalism and the feeling of Welsh nationality than any compalint to the police or some slap wrist by the discredited 'ishoos' lobby of New Labour.
I'd rather be ridiculed than ignored and I'd rather be feared than ridiculed. Running to the police is just weak, weak, weak it's the same as this 'what has Wales done wrong?' victimhood which Plaid's spokesman came out with last night. Plaid need to snap out of it. Lets be like the Irish - strong not whingers.
Get over it. Lets have a fight!
Macsen
A chef was fined by Pwllheli magistrates in August for writing "Who do those f***ing English think they are? F***ing w*****s.” on his Facebook wall. For doing so he was found to be guilty of "sending a message that was offensive, indecent, obscene or menacing by means of a public communications network.".
I understand your argument for saying that Mr Liddle's comment aren't racist, but surely they do constitute "sending a message that is offensive, indecent, obscene or menacing by means of a public communications network", and are therefore unlawful.
Let me ask you this, Alwyn: do you think he should have been fined or not? I don't think so, and if I remember what you said at the time, neither do you. That decision was disgraceful. But do we really want to see Rod Liddle fined for writing what he did?
This is nothing for us to get angry about. It's a reflexion on him, not us. And of course it's a reflexion on publications like the Spectator, who thrive on being condescending obnoxious to those they look down on. I am sure that they LOVE the sort of response they are getting to what he wrote.
I wrote a comment too, as it happens. I said:
"We need to remember that the Spectator only pays Rod to write stuff like this in an attempt to make Melanie Phillips sound moderate and reasonable."
Was it published? Of course it wasn't!
Now ask yourself why. To me, the answer is obvious: that they want to provoke an indignant reaction. They expect that, they can cope with that, and it adds to their sense of fun. What they can't cope with is us laughing at Rod Liddle for writing it, and at them for publishing it.
Who cares? I make English jokes all the time.
Let me ask you this, Alwyn: do you think he should have been fined or not?
No I don't, I tend to agree with Macsen.
I don't like laws that restrict people's right to express their prejudices because I see them as counterproductive. If I am not allowed to express my prejudices then they cannot be challenged and if they aren't challenged then they will probably fester and become more toxic.
As much as I don't like the law and would like the law to be changed, the law as it stands should be applied equally to all. Until the law is changed if Welsh chefs are being fined for making abusive comments about the English, then English journalists should also be fined for making abusive comments about the Welsh.
I very much welcome the debate on racism and race, as there is an uncomfortable dilemma here. As people have stated, we are using racism accusations against individuals of the same race. Maybe it could be argued therefore that Liddle is guilty of abusing himself (make of that what you will!)?
It is most certainly a deliberate and abusive attack on a nationality and culture , but the Welsh are most certainly not a different race. It would be interesting if politicians came up with an amendment to the leglslation, to correct this problem.
Anonymous is completely wrong over the Irish the big change has come because they stopped accepting the stock “Tick Paddy” image of themselves and Irish Comedians like Dara O’Briain no longer pander to this. Whether Liddle appalling rant it is racist in a legal sense is irrelevant we cannot sit idly by and allow such insults to be made without standing up for ourselves. In this we must promote ourselves positively and that means our own commentators should cease their own ant-welsh attitude. When are we going to have a mainstream Welsh comedian being positive about the Welsh language for instance?
Glyn - I was thinking more of Patrick Peearse and Michael Collins - would they have run to the police everytime someone said something nasty about them? It makes us look pathetic and more importantly we're talking ourselves down by wanting some higher (British) authority to bestow justice on our behalf. It's like we never left the Victorian Age when that's all we wanted was the Enlgish to be nice to us.
The Irish didn't run to daddy they told him where to go. We should do the same.
Macsen
Bit of a side-note really but it's not unacceptable in Welsh to describe the Welsh as a race, or 'hil' - it's actually rather common in Welsh-language poetry or literature - so maybe there's an element of perspective here.
I felt that the sentiment of the comments on the article were actually, on balance, against Rod Liddle's suggestions.
I especially enjoyed the one from an English Northerner who complained that this sort of sentiment, expressed by a southern media type (my words, not his) tarred all english people with the same unpleasant brush! And it was no wonder that the wole of the world hated them!
A lot of the other comments were effectively witty and by far the best defence in a case like this. Shouting Racism all the time just makes us easier targets!
The problem is, the Legal definition of racism that Ian refers to, is far too 'PC' to be useful.
As you tried to say as a comment, Rod is paid to be controversial - just like Jeremy Clarkson - another famous fan of the Welsh - but If you read them in that knowledge, then whatever they say, it can't hurt you!
BTW You read far worse anti-Welsh sentiment on the Wales on line Forum and on the Comments accompanying their articles!
Rod Liddle's comments were crass, bigoted, contemptuous, ignorant and ridiculous.
But if we want to keep to the spirit of that great Welsh saying "Rhydd i bawb ei farn ac i bob barn ei llafar" , we have to allow people to express their opinions. Nothing should stop that in my opinion, short of that opinion constituting an actual physical threat to another individual.
I can't for the life of me understand why people have to reach for this "racist" comfort blanket, where it's so obvious that being welsh is a matter of being a nation apart not a race apart! And why on earth do some want to run to PC Plod?!- it's just feeding this sense of victimhood which does nothing at all to build a sense of nationhood.
These type of offensive comments are bound to happen such is the uncomfortable and fractured relationship that exists between Wales and England. We should respond, not with the law and not with PC Plod, but with words,ideas and passion. As indeed has been seen with the response to the article on the Spectator's website: the article and Rod Liddle have both been thoroughly trashed by the passion, knowledge and wisdom displayed by a large number of Welsh respondents to his post.
These are qualities that we will all have to hone over the next few years because we will have to respond to many more Rod Liddle like attacks. But, as another poster has said, keep them coming Englanders because all they do is help to forge a nation.
As posted on Valleys Mam earlier, slightly corrected..
As the Deputy Editor of Spectator, worried about revenue of the rag, why not write something a bit controversial and see the hits on the website jump, and advertising revenue thereof.
Is Rod Little a racist, I doubt it, and shouting racist anytime someone dares criticise us is a bit poor, after all think how the Americans portray the English in films.
I read The Times, but am yet to read a Rod Little article, he’s a bit ‘Simon Cowell’ saying things to draw attention to himself. I see the article and the picture and the shirt and the big beer belly, and think mate, I can go to the pub anytime and hear what you’ve got to say, and it be much more interesting in the pub.
My spelling of his surname though is deliberate.
whats been interesting about the response to liddle's humourless diatribe about the welsh is that while in the past bigoted comments were aimed at the irish or people of pakistani or indian origin such abuse of such national groups is no longer considered acceptable and simply would not be tolerated and rightly so of course -yet we welsh are just supposed to laugh it off when we are abused in such bigoted terms!
the plain fact of the matter is the welsh have same right to protection from such abuse as any other nationality! There is no middle ground or grey areas here - anyone who thinks its acceptable for liddle to abuse the welsh in this way by definition would think it acceptable to abuse the irish and asian communities in this way - and indeed tis used to be the case for much of the 1960s and 1970s in the uk!
i didnt laugh at the racism aimed at irish and asian people in the uk in the 1970s i was nauseated by it - and im not laughing at the racism towards the welsh liddle is guilty of now!
leigh richards
> Wales is a nation, and being Welsh is a matter of nationality, not race.
Of course, but this is a red herring, surely. "Jamaican" isn't a race either, but a blog post on a national magazine's website about how all Jamaicans are ganja-smoking, gun-toting homophobes would be rightly condemned as racism, and no amount of sophistry about there being white Jamaicans would convince us otherwise.
Intent is important, isn't it? Liddle's definition of "the Welsh" isn't meant to include sophisticated metropolitans, and he'd probably be as incredulous as Nick Griffin was when confronted with the existence of black Welsh people. The fact that "the Welsh" aren't a racial group is irrelevant; Liddle is speaking as if they are, and is therefore using racist language.
As for the "What Would Michael Collins Do?" argument - it's not 1916.
Rod Liddle can write what he likes but really it was a pretty dire attempt at humour. Of course the courts define the Welsh and English as separate "racial groups"
Paul Theroux once said that the only time the English took an Irishman seriously was when he was holding a gun. Having foresworn guns the Welsh will obviously never be taken seriously.
Paul Theroux once said that the only time the English took an Irishman seriously was when he was holding a gun. Having foresworn guns the Welsh will obviously never be taken seriously
If guns are what it takes - I would prefer not to be taken seriously! (Not that I'm taken seriously by many unarmed people anyway).
To most ethnic minorities, ''White'' conjures up an image of someone that's very media-savvy, doesn't really understand black and Asian culture and hasn't really been through the mill. So although yes the majority of us are white, I think current tick-boxes don't really serve us well. Although we have had some ''white privilege'', we haven't really done anything to black people. I'm not saying we should cry racist over everything but I for one think that we don't deserve ''payback'' for things that Welsh people didn't do any more than little boys should grow up thinking they're useless because little girls did once.
nmd
nike cortez
nike air huarache
nike air force
balenciaga shoes
balenciaga
asics shoes
bape hoodie
true religion
kyrie 4
hermes birkin
michael kors factory outlet
nike air max
chrome hearts
adidas store
gucci belts
nike flyknit racer
adidas nmd runner
nike basketball shoes
vans outlet
adidas outlet
michael kors outlet
stephen curry 5
ray ban sunglasses
nike football boots
balenciaga
ferragamo belt
longchamp
adidas superstar
http://www.kobeshoes.uk
adidas
james harden jersey
fendi sunglasses
canada goose jackets
jimmy choo
prada outlet
oakley sunglasses sale
burberry outlet
moncler jackets
vans scarpe
2018.9.22zhouyanhua
soccer jerseys
adidas outlet
moncler jackets
polo ralph lauren
off-white shoes
adidas originals
ugg factory outlet
kobe 11
jordan shoes
baseball jersey
201810.26wengdongdong
kobe shoes
yeezys
adidas superstar
golden goose outlet
michael kors purses
longchamp handbags
adidas shoes outlet
golden goose sneakers
birkin bag
fila
change gbwhatsapp theme
watch unlimited number of movies using Cinema Box App on your Android devices.
GBWhatsApp is a similar version of WhatsApp, Has many new features, Enables you to use WhatsApp easier, GBWhatsApp has a special package name that mean you can install it with any WhatsApp version, And enjoy using more than one number on same device, Also you can hide online status, Blue ticks, and ability to download any story, Also you can customize your own theme or choose between more than 1000 theme, GBWhatsApp does not support dark mode completely, Only for the GBSettings but do not worry you can search on themes library and you will find many of them provide dark colors for you. https://whatsopp.net/download-gbwhatsapp-apk-latest-version/
you should not forget to go for a desert safari. Dubai desert safari offers an exciting and amazing experience Dubai desert safari packages
From Dubai to our Abu dhabi city tour, see the main sights of the city with delicious dining at the Emirates Palace Abu Dhabi by adventure group services.
Up to 50% savings on the Dubai City Tour with the Dubai Museum and more visitor attractions and trips will start you by choosing from your hotel. Our representative will guide you through the entire Dubai city tour.
Explore The Desert in 1950s Vintage Land Rovers. Book Your Desert safari Dubai in Dubai now. Wildlife Drives, Local Cuisine & Cultural Entertainment
https://desertadventuregroup.com/
great article that help other to know what is happaned now... Please visit my web too for more similar info.. 메이저사이트
I just found this blog and have high hopes for it to continue. Keep up the great work, its hard to find good ones. I have added to my favorites. Thank You. 사설토토
I got a web site from where I be capable of really obtain valuable information regarding my study and knowledge.
Great Article… Good Job… Thanks For Sharing…
Website:출장마사지
Thanks for picking out the time to discuss this, I feel great about it and love studying more on this topic. It is extremely helpful for me. Thanks for such a valuable help again 먹튀검증
Is Your Business suffering because of the ongoing economic conditions? Do you want to take leverage of the Force Majeure clause? then you've come to the right place because we at Davidsons will ensure that you're able to fully reap the benefits of this clause.
Cost of Desert Safari Dubai per person - Want to try a fun desert safari in Dubai? Yes…? You have confirmed the right decision… Now you can enjoy an amazing desert trip for a great deal while there are many safari safari deals you can get.
Pingack:Desert safari
Pingack:Desert safari deals
Pingack:Desert safari dubai
If you are looking for remote shelter and embarking on an adventurous evening out,creek park dubai is not the right place for you. Visitors can enjoy many outdoor activities that will entice anyone and keep them away from their busy and monotonous schedule.
creek park dubai is the second largest park in Dubai, with endless acres of meadows, children's playgrounds and gardens.
In 1994, creek park dubai opened and is one of the oldest and largest parks in Dubai. The park is bordered by a saltwater spring.
I like this blog its a master peace ! Glad I detected this on google 먹튀검증
Desert Safari Abu Dhabi is one of the leading tour operator companies in the UAE that takes great care of the comfort and convenience of the guests while ensuring that this excursion becomes the most memorable trip of their life. We offer VIP Desert Safari Deals In Abu Dhabi that are true amalgamation of comfort, luxury, extravagance and adventure.
https://desertsafarisabudhabi.com/
Thanks for the detailed article on this topic. I would like to see more such awesome articles from you.
Best information given on the nation,Thanks for sharing this information.
VenuePro is made up of 14 comprehensive modules that deliver all aspects of effective venue and event management, and whilst consulting with industry experts and global venue and space owners, is constantly in further development. Venue Management Software UK
Such an excellent blog, I am very impressed with it. Keep sharing stuff like this in future.
I just aspire your website laden all ดูการ์ตูน the way up for the reason that fast for the reason that joining your downline lol
The information you have shared here is very helpful. I really like and appreciate your work. Thanks again for it, keep us updated in future! also check Gbwhatsapp for more info!
Thanks for the detailed article on this topic. I would like to see more such awesome articles from you.
Mobilemall Bangladesh
As I am looking at your writing, 우리카지노 I regret being unable to do outdoor activities due to Corona 19, and I miss my old daily life. If you also miss the daily life of those days, would you please visit my site once? My site is a site where I post about photos and daily life when I was free.
Your posts are always informative. This post was a very interesting topic for me too. 파워볼사이트 I wish I could visit the site I run and exchange opinions with each other. So have a nice day.
Successful business leaders have blazed a path working with academics to establish the formula to deliver the 4 day week. There was a belief the outcome would be positive. They were blown away when the experiment turned in the results it did. But it takes insight to deliver on it right. Our decades of change management help us guide organizations through this evolution smoothly. Eliminate burnout
I finally found what I was looking for! I'm so happy. 우리카지노
I think this is an informative post and it is very helpful and knowledgeable. So I want to thank you for your efforts in writing this article. All content is well thought out. Thank. dubai dune buggy rental
Excellent Content. I enjoy how you present. Continue to impart more information.
gta 5 apk More than any complaint to the police or any slap on the wrist from the discredited "ishoos" lobby of New Labour, Rod Liddle, Ann Robinson, and others work to promote Welsh nationalism and the sense of Welsh identity.
I'd rather to be laughed at than ignored, and I'd prefer to be feared than laughed at. Running to the police is just as weak as the victim mentality that Plaid's spokesman expressed last night, asking "What has Wales done wrong?" Plaid must get their act together. Let's be strong, not complainers, like the Irish.
Hi there! Your content is truly impressive and a pleasure to read. Thank you for putting this together and sharing it.
Wonderful article! Interesting, educational, and well-written. We really value the helpful details and concise explanations. I can't wait to read more tales like this one! Dubai Safari Park
Post a Comment